Ducati sales numbers 2019 - Page 2 - Ducati Supersport 939 Forum
 44Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-20-2020, 05:05 PM
Training Wheels
 
ChuXseN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 36
Likes Received: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by rz33v4 View Post
[...]The bikes you mention as alternatives are much more "sport" than "touring", with the exception of the BMW S1000R.[...]
Exactly that. The Streetfighters and the Tuono live on the much more sporty side. And that is exactly why the Streetfighter V2 will kill the Supersport, because the Supersport is currently 80% Sport and 20% Touring. This means that the Supersport addresses the same target group as the Streetfighter and the Streetfighter has a much clearer image. This means that either they will develop the Supersport much more towards Touring or the series will be discontinued.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rz33v4 View Post
[...]have 2 amateur road racing titles to my name[...]
Oh, come on. Two amateur titles and 50 years of riding bikes and then these chicken stripes on the back wheel?

I am simply disappointed in the super sport. In theory, it's an awesome bike for the road. The two test rides also felt good.

But in practice, the 959 Panigale has enough power from below and you don't spend enough time at low revs. So the engine is not a real argument for supersport. For this the engine should have much more power. A 1200 Supersport would possibly be just that.

Also, the seating position on longer tours is not significantly better than on the Panigale 959. When I get off the Supersport after 400km, I notice all over my body that it was exhausting. That feels like sport. After that I'm mostly not able to do anything anymore. I am not unsportsmanlike (82 kg at 183 cm). Also here the difference to a Panigale 959 should be only marginal. I got off the R 1200 GS after 800km and my ass hurt, but I didn't notice anything on the rest of my body. So far so much for touring abilities.

More luggage than on the 959 Panigale cannot be transported. These are exactly the same problems, as both have a supersport rear. There is also no semi-active suspension or the possibility to adjust the spring preload hydraulically / electrically. However, this would be very useful on a touring bike.

So what remains of the theoretically good model in practice? Is it a good motorcycle? Yes, in no doubt. It is a cheap entry-level Panigale for old men. Would you miss the supersport? No, not at all. And I think that's a really sad thing.
ChuXseN is offline  
post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-20-2020, 05:09 PM
Training Wheels
 
ChuXseN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 36
Likes Received: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by LowRyter View Post
Regarding riding twisty roads for the SS vs Panigale. I'd think the higher bars would give better leverage and would make the SS a better choice. Not much change to use all the extra power when the road is twisty, where momentum, handing and gearing work. Of course Panigale would leave the SS for dead on a track. The lower bars and a great aero advantage to keep a road race rider tucked out of the air stream.
If you say that higher handlebar stubs produce more handling, you have no idea about physics. Handling is achieved through leverage. Greater leverage is realized by a wider handlebar. At most, the height of the handlebars provides more comfort because there is less load on the wrists. Not more and not less.
ChuXseN is offline  
post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-20-2020, 06:32 PM
Elbow Dragger
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Edmond OK
Posts: 1,443
Likes Received: 712
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuXseN View Post
If you say that higher handlebar stubs produce more handling, you have no idea about physics. Handling is achieved through leverage. Greater leverage is realized by a wider handlebar. At most, the height of the handlebars provides more comfort because there is less load on the wrists. Not more and not less.
yes, leverage.

We live in a 3 dimensional world, not two- that's physics. Leverage from width, but also reach.

And of course we all have different body shapes. I am not saying the ape hangers will give more leverage either. I don't see motocross riders with clip ons. Many like nakeds for handling where the have width and reach advantages. For me, I have more leverage with my SS coupled with light weight, that's better than my two nakeds both have wider and taller bars. And certainly better than all the full on sport bikes I've ridden with clip ons, even light weight 600s.

YMMV. But don't talk like you've discovered the scientific method. Remember physics: three dimensions, not just two.

John L

Ducs quack at midnight and 9am
LowRyter is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-20-2020, 07:02 PM
Chicken Strips
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Michigan
Posts: 489
Likes Received: 379
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuXseN View Post
Exactly that. The Streetfighters and the Tuono live on the much more sporty side. And that is exactly why the Streetfighter V2 will kill the Supersport, because the Supersport is currently 80% Sport and 20% Touring. This means that the Supersport addresses the same target group as the Streetfighter and the Streetfighter has a much clearer image. This means that either they will develop the Supersport much more towards Touring or the series will be discontinued.
No, the Panigale V2 and Streetfighter V2 (if there ever is such a model) will "kill" bikes like the SuperSport because of riders' egos, not the bike itself. I think the SuperSport is more like 60% sport and 40% touring, but let's not quibble about the numbers. We both agree the SuperSport could have better touring chops and I'm not sure why it doesn't, like where's the cruise control? What it does have is wind protection, which those Streetfighters are sorely lacking.

Quote:
Oh, come on. Two amateur titles and 50 years of riding bikes and then these chicken stripes on the back wheel?
I did my racing on the tracks, not the street, so you won't find my tires worn clear to the edges. I didn't know the lack of "chicken strips" was a badge of courage, but maybe you do.

Quote:
Also, the seating position on longer tours is not significantly better than on the Panigale 959. When I get off the Supersport after 400km, I notice all over my body that it was exhausting. That feels like sport. After that I'm mostly not able to do anything anymore. I am not unsportsmanlike (82 kg at 183 cm). Also here the difference to a Panigale 959 should be only marginal. I got off the R 1200 GS after 800km and my ass hurt, but I didn't notice anything on the rest of my body. So far so much for touring abilities.
You really can't compare the BMW GS model to the Supersport; a totally different bike for a totally different customer. I respect those BMWs, but I also like good design and they look like farm implements to my eyes.

Quote:
More luggage than on the 959 Panigale cannot be transported. These are exactly the same problems, as both have a supersport rear. There is also no semi-active suspension or the possibility to adjust the spring preload hydraulically / electrically. However, this would be very useful on a touring bike.
Gee, I didn't realize you could order factory saddlebags on the Panigales. Oh, you can't. Semi-active suspension might be a good addition to the SS, but it will come at a cost.

Quote:
So what remains of the theoretically good model in practice? Is it a good motorcycle? Yes, in no doubt. It is a cheap entry-level Panigale for old men. Would you miss the supersport? No, not at all. And I think that's a really sad thing.
.

Well, I'm one of those "old men" who like the SuperSport, so I guess I'm misguided.
Derek, Lambo, RadRodriguez and 2 others like this.
rz33v4 is online now  
post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-20-2020, 08:48 PM
Knee Dragger
 
Miweber929's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Woodbury, Minnesota
Posts: 835
Likes Received: 686
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuXseN View Post

I am simply disappointed in the super sport. In theory, it's an awesome bike for the road. The two test rides also felt good.
Sorry you feel that way. I think you may have gone into the bike thinking it was one thing and it was another. It happens, and it’s a good thing there are MANY other bikes out there to try.

Quote:
But in practice, the 959 Panigale has enough power from below and you don't spend enough time at low revs. So the engine is not a real argument for supersport. For this the engine should have much more power. A 1200 Supersport would possibly be just that.

Also, the seating position on longer tours is not significantly better than on the Panigale 959. When I get off the Supersport after 400km, I notice all over my body that it was exhausting. That feels like sport. After that I'm mostly not able to do anything anymore. I am not unsportsmanlike (82 kg at 183 cm). Also here the difference to a Panigale 959 should be only marginal. I got off the R 1200 GS after 800km and my ass hurt, but I didn't notice anything on the rest of my body. So far so much for touring abilities.
I completely disagree with this statement. I put 275 miles in a long day on a Panigale 959, it was an incredible bike but my ass and body hurt bad for a week after and my under legs and butt took hours to cool down after. I had chaffing for weeks after. It was a blast to Canyon carve on but as a street, everyday bike, no way.

I did a 450 mile day on my Supersport, in even less time and with half the stops than I had on the Pani. I hurt, nit bad, but was good enough that after I got home, drank some water and took a shower I jumped on my Triumph and took the wife for a 50 mile ride for dinner. Zero discomfort the next day.

I’ve also spent several 200+ mile days on the SS and have been fresh the next day to do it again. And again. It’s not a Monster, or a GS, or a Gold Wing. It’s a comfortable, realistic sport bike.

Quote:
So what remains of the theoretically good model in practice? Is it a good motorcycle? Yes, in no doubt. It is a cheap entry-level Panigale for old men. Would you miss the supersport? No, not at all. And I think that's a really sad thing.
Entry level Panigale? Um no. If I wanted a Pani, I’d have one. Cheap? No, lots of better and cheaper choices if that’s what you want. For old men? Sure, old enough to not be driven by my testosterone and instead make decisions with my brain. I do t need 150hp to have fun.

Really sounds like you bought the wrong bike. I’m sorry your pissed but it’s not our fault. No reason to pick at us because we get this bike and you don’t.

Enjoy the V2. Unless the bars are higher and they fix the seat heater, I’m out. Or if I move to an area right in the twisties.
djcmx49 and brucemswan like this.

Mike

- 2017 Ducati Supersport S
- 2011 Triumph Sprint GT
- 2010 Yamaha WR250R
Miweber929 is offline  
post #16 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-20-2020, 11:54 PM
Elbow Dragger
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Edmond OK
Posts: 1,443
Likes Received: 712
yeah, except the Supersport is better in the twisties for many folks with better leverage due to higher bars.

thanks for that

John L

Ducs quack at midnight and 9am
LowRyter is online now  
post #17 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-21-2020, 07:10 AM
Training Wheels
 
ChuXseN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 36
Likes Received: 34
Wikipedia:

One effect of turning the front wheel is a roll moment caused by gyroscopic precession. The magnitude of this moment is proportional to the moment of inertia of the front wheel, its spin rate (forward motion), the rate that the rider turns the front wheel by applying a torque to the handlebars, and the cosine of the angle between the steering axis and the vertical.[10]

For a sample motorcycle moving at 22 m/s (50 mph) that has a front wheel with a moment of inertia of 0.6 kgm2, turning the front wheel one degree in half a second generates a roll moment of 3.5 Nm. In comparison, the lateral force on the front tire as it tracks out from under the motorcycle reaches a maximum of 50 N. This, acting on the 0.6 m (2 ft) height of the center of mass, generates a roll moment of 30 Nm.[10]

While the moment from gyroscopic forces is only 12% of this, it can play a significant part because it begins to act as soon as the rider applies the torque, instead of building up more slowly as the wheel out-tracks. This can be especially helpful in motorcycle racing.[10]

---------------

Just add the Lever-Effect:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lever

----

Nothing to do with the high

Last edited by ChuXseN; 01-21-2020 at 07:15 AM.
ChuXseN is offline  
post #18 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-21-2020, 09:10 AM
Training Wheels
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Kent, England
Posts: 36
Likes Received: 65
Sales Numbers always make interesting figures but as with any product and especially manufacturing a lot more comes into play than just the final sales. I know we make a model range that is a loss earner but it retains market share and keeps the customers in our brand. I have also been involved in an organisation where the product was only put on the market to cover R&D spend for development

With regards these figures it does no show the family size of the different ranges and then one can argue that technically the Hypermotard, 950 multistrada and Supersport are all essentially the same just different configurations. Where as there are different bikes in all the families classification, and if you spread the numbers of the range it suddenly makes different reading:

product/range/qty/mean sales

Multistrada/8/12160/1520
Scrambler/8/11873/1484
Monster/5/9019/1803
Panagale/6/8304/1384
Hypermotard/2/4472/2236
Diavel/2/30129/1565
Supersport/2/2554/1277
DiavelX/2/1630/815


So if you just look at the Supersport and average $15000, that is $33 540 000 - (6% global sales value) no one going to scoff at that, maybe we are the the GP budget
Ed K, Alley Oop and Oldrider like this.

current garage 2018 – Ducati SupeSport ,2018 – KTM Duke 390 ,2014 – Kawasaki Z800
old garage Honda CBR650F, Honda CBR500 , Honda CB125, Honda CB400N,Kawasaki ER6N, Susuki GS450,Yamaha MR50
Eyer is offline  
post #19 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-21-2020, 10:01 AM
Super Moderator
 
Ed K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: America
Posts: 5,208
Likes Received: 2702
@Eyer Interesting point, Ducati needs to mostly only cover the variable costs of an SS to make it profitable, as the sunk fixed costs have been spread over many product lines that combined equates to high sales volumes.
Oldrider likes this.

2017 Ducati SuperSport S
2015 Ducati Scrambler
Ed K is online now  
post #20 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-21-2020, 12:52 PM
Elbow Dragger
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Edmond OK
Posts: 1,443
Likes Received: 712
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuXseN View Post
Wikipedia:

One effect of turning the front wheel is a roll moment caused by gyroscopic precession. The magnitude of this moment is proportional to the moment of inertia of the front wheel, its spin rate (forward motion), the rate that the rider turns the front wheel by applying a torque to the handlebars, and the cosine of the angle between the steering axis and the vertical.[10]

For a sample motorcycle moving at 22 m/s (50 mph) that has a front wheel with a moment of inertia of 0.6 kgm2, turning the front wheel one degree in half a second generates a roll moment of 3.5 Nm. In comparison, the lateral force on the front tire as it tracks out from under the motorcycle reaches a maximum of 50 N. This, acting on the 0.6 m (2 ft) height of the center of mass, generates a roll moment of 30 Nm.[10]

While the moment from gyroscopic forces is only 12% of this, it can play a significant part because it begins to act as soon as the rider applies the torque, instead of building up more slowly as the wheel out-tracks. This can be especially helpful in motorcycle racing.[10]

---------------

Just add the Lever-Effect:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lever

----

Nothing to do with the high
Completely misses the point. This leverage equation only considers the bar being in the same plane and does not consider reach. It's only meant to be a two dimensional equation.

So I'll ask, if the clip ons were a foot lower down the front fork, would the rider have as much leverage to turn the bike as before? And if the bars were on foot tall risers? Of course not. There are other factors like center of gravity and the angles on arms and shoulders.

Now I will say that everyone has different physical stature. So it's certainly possible what fits one person won't work for another. But in general terms, I'll stick with my point that the taller bars on the SS have more leverage than a bike with clip ons under the triple tree.

John L

Ducs quack at midnight and 9am
LowRyter is online now  
Reply

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome