Ducati Supersport 939 Forum banner

1 - 20 of 28 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,385 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I'm investigating adding the IMU to the SS harness. Blackbox etc will be changed too.

My question is whether or not adding wires onto the canbus Hi and Low wire which runs throughout all the electronic equipment, will it have an influence based on resistance and volt drops. If soldered then the volt drop will increase and maybe make some functions fail. I don't know, I'm hoping the knowledgable guys can provide some advice how I can integrate the IMU wires..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
439 Posts
So I'm not getting a clear picture of what you are trying to do in my head... However it sounds like you are modifying the existing harness to add components from another Ducati. I say if you match how the other harness is designed it should be fine.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,385 Posts
Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
I think the penny has dropped.
The voltage is merely a carrier for the data packets. Voltage drop shouldn't impact it. The canbus is the network cable carrying lots of bytes of info. I'm a bit old and slow but I figured it out in the end.
Onward and upward!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,255 Posts
I'm not so sure. by adding wires + component will definitely change the values and therefor would be read differently unless it is within the programmed variables. I spent a lot of time talking to people who knew a lot about the Cam Bus on various Ducati. and always the news wasn't good if changes were made. A common problem in the past was the loom heating up from not being insulated enough and that would cause false readings. My understanding is that you would have to know the whole protocols and cause and effects and have the ability to reprogram the ECU / Black box and I just don't know how you would get that info. An example being if understand it right The rear tail light and the Fan motor (as well as other things )share the same message route to the computer. if the bulb goes on the tail light, the values are predictable and a warning light is triggered (Lamp out) but if the engine temp rises it sets off the Fan regardless of the tail light being out. I know we all know this but if the fan motor has stopped working (The protocol would put it into limp mode all based on the values returned to the Black box) My point is if you change the value you wont know till you turn your indicator on and it throws your bike into limp mode. The spent Months trying to find the Fault and cause of !!!!! in my Loom and gave up (and that was with confirming the values of all components being correct.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,385 Posts
Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
I'm not so sure. by adding wires + component will definitely change the values and therefor would be read differently unless it is within the programmed variables. I spent a lot of time talking to people who knew a lot about the Cam Bus on various Ducati. and always the news wasn't good if changes were made. A common problem in the past was the loom heating up from not being insulated enough and that would cause false readings. My understanding is that you would have to know the whole protocols and cause and effects and have the ability to reprogram the ECU / Black box and I just don't know how you would get that info. An example being if understand it right The rear tail light and the Fan motor (as well as other things )share the same message route to the computer. if the bulb goes on the tail light, the values are predictable and a warning light is triggered (Lamp out) but if the engine temp rises it sets off the Fan regardless of the tail light being out. I know we all know this but if the fan motor has stopped working (The protocol would put it into limp mode all based on the values returned to the Black box) My point is if you change the value you wont know till you turn your indicator on and it throws your bike into limp mode. The spent Months trying to find the Fault and cause of !!!!! in my Loom and gave up (and that was with confirming the values of all components being correct.
Thanks for the warning... or scaremongering :grin2:
Each sensor is allocated data codes, for example 02XX could be the tail light faulty and 0X20 could be headlight faulty. I don't know what all the codes are but I'm guessing they are the same as the error codes found using the obd reader. When operational the eproms are passing on the relevant codes for input and reaction.
Those numerous operational codes are transferred to each of the eproms on the canbus network and each eprom is programmed to give their output. Like the fuel injection for traction control, the dash eprom pings a light and the main ecu cuts the fuel, the Blackbox registers it and sends the code to each of the eproms and then they each react.
I intend going the full hog and change all the eproms so that each can work seamlessly. Namely, abs, dashboard, Blackbox, ecu, and IMU.
I have decided not to solder the IMU wires in incase there's an issue.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,255 Posts
I’m not sure I get what your wanting to do and why. What is the end game ? I’m sure you know but I’ve read through and I’m missing something.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,385 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
I found this on Google and it is this that worries me.

"The wires are called CAN high and CAN low. When the CAN bus is in idle mode, both lines carry 2.5V. When data bits are being transmitted, the CAN high line goes to 3.75V and the CAN low drops to 1.25V, thereby generating a 2.5V differential between the lines"

I suspect these wires are 18awg since they are not current carriers. Can lines are milli amp carriers.

It could be fruitful if some of the electrical / electronic fundies could join in. Unless we don't have any members with that background of course.
 

·
Registered
2017 Ducati Supersport, 2015 Ducati Scrambler Classic, 1994 Ducati 907ie
Joined
·
1,584 Posts
The CAN bus is a twisted pair with a termination resistance of 100Ω. I'm unsure where you get the idea that a soldered joint will drop volts as it will have less resistance than practically any other kind of joint and therefore have a minimum voltage drop and with the tiny currents involved probably next to none.
Quite a lot of good info here : https://www.csselectronics.com/screen/page/simple-intro-to-can-bus/language/en
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,385 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
The CAN bus is a twisted pair with a termination resistance of 100Ω. I'm unsure where you get the idea that a soldered joint will drop volts as it will have less resistance than practically any other kind of joint and therefore have a minimum voltage drop and with the tiny currents involved probably next to none.
Quite a lot of good info here : https://www.csselectronics.com/screen/page/simple-intro-to-can-bus/language/en
Twisted pair for cancelling the variance in electrical noise.
Intuitive video you posted. Cheers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,385 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
@Derek
I see you've had online conversations in the MS forums regarding the canbus decoding. I have zero programming knowledge, well I did some at university over 25 yrs ago but it was not my thing, per say.
Do you know of any friendly solutions for reading, decoding and developing. Just wondering if you'd dabbled in it.
 

·
Registered
2017 Ducati Supersport, 2015 Ducati Scrambler Classic, 1994 Ducati 907ie
Joined
·
1,584 Posts
Sorry @amoslws, no real knowledge of it other than a basic understanding of what it's about. It seemed too complex to get involved with unless I had a need. There seems to be quite a lot of stuff available on line that might help you.
 

·
Registered
2017 Ducati Supersport, 2015 Ducati Scrambler Classic, 1994 Ducati 907ie
Joined
·
1,584 Posts
@amoslws I found this website with advice on making connections to CANbus systems. https://www.beijer.com/en/news/what-can-be-done-with-the-can-bus/
Basically, keep the length of any connecting wires as short as possible, solder joints but use a gas soldering iron to prevent stray induced currents from corrupting the CANbus system, never work on an active system.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,385 Posts
Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
@amoslws I found this website with advice on making connections to CANbus systems. https://www.beijer.com/en/news/what-can-be-done-with-the-can-bus/
Basically, keep the length of any connecting wires as short as possible, solder joints but use a gas soldering iron to prevent stray induced currents from corrupting the CANbus system, never work on an active system.
Thanks @Derek
I've read or heard 30cm max from the host.
I'll be placing the IMU in front of the Blackbox where the DDS cable lays. Then I'll connect directly onto the canbus lines at the black box connector. I'll be disconnecting all ecu's and battery before doing any work.
Maybe you have heard it yourself, when disconnecting the battery a 30 or so seconds later one can hear a relay unlatch. That's my cue to know the system has discharged.
I've now ordered the 2017 monster 1200S ecu's (ABS, IMU, main ECU and Blackbox) all from the same bike so they should be married. Later I'll install the monster 1200 instrument panel so I can get all the menu functions on the display. Unfortunately that bike was written off and as usual the headlight and dash seem to take the brunt of most bike accidents.

I tried learning canbus development this past few days and to be honest that stuff is the modern dark art. However it's something I need to learn because frankly it's the future of our vehicles, homes, and industrial plants etc.
 

·
Registered
2017 Ducati Supersport, 2015 Ducati Scrambler Classic, 1994 Ducati 907ie
Joined
·
1,584 Posts
I thought you must be up to something like that. I guess that if you compare the wiring diagrams for both bikes you should be able to add in the section required to match them. It's as well that all the components are from the same bike, I was wondering how you were going to fit a BBS unit that was already married to another bike?
I know what you mean about modern dark art. I learned my electronics near 50 years ago when nearly everything was analogue and transistors were the current technology with integrated circuits new on the market. I spent 20 odd years maintaining broadcast spec video equipment and edit suites then it very quickly turned digital and computer based. I just had to learn new technology as it happened, but with CANbus I'm happy to ignore it at the moment. There's a lot to learn and I just haven't got the incentive just now - but that could change ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,385 Posts
Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
I thought you must be up to something like that. I guess that if you compare the wiring diagrams for both bikes you should be able to add in the section required to match them. It's as well that all the components are from the same bike, I was wondering how you were going to fit a BBS unit that was already married to another bike?
I know what you mean about modern dark art. I learned my electronics near 50 years ago when nearly everything was analogue and transistors were the current technology with integrated circuits new on the market. I spent 20 odd years maintaining broadcast spec video equipment and edit suites then it very quickly turned digital and computer based. I just had to learn new technology as it happened, but with CANbus I'm happy to ignore it at the moment. There's a lot to learn and I just haven't got the incentive just now - but that could change ;)
Well here's a bit of luck, the Bluetooth connector in front of the blackbox has the very same terminals as the IMU, only a different connector and order. It's like it was meant to happen, right in the position I intend placing the IMU.
Seems I'll have to only pick up the red/black key sense, because the Bluetooth is a feature requiring to turned on. Nevertheless the canbus is there and that was my concern.
 

·
Registered
2017 Ducati Supersport, 2015 Ducati Scrambler Classic, 1994 Ducati 907ie
Joined
·
1,584 Posts
Now that really is a stroke of luck. I've downloaded the 2017 M1200 wiring diagram so that I can see what you are getting up to ;)
 

·
Registered
2017 Ducati Supersport, 2015 Ducati Scrambler Classic, 1994 Ducati 907ie
Joined
·
1,584 Posts
I've had a quick look and can see that the BBS and ABS unit wiring is the same for both bikes. The ECU is nearly the same but with some different pins for the gear sensor and DQS, but the dash has an awful lot of pins swapped around. That's going to keep you busy :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,385 Posts
Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
I've had a quick look and can see that the BBS and ABS unit wiring is the same for both bikes. The ECU is nearly the same but with some different pins for the gear sensor and DQS, but the dash has an awful lot of pins swapped around. That's going to keep you busy :)
Yup there's very little difference regarding 'Drive' ecus but the dash is going to be a PITA, the colour codes and are the same though. I think I counted 6 terminals that don't need changing on the dash. Until I have it I won't know but I expect I may need to make a bracket, maybe the mounting holes have the same symmetry, don't know yet. I have checked all colours and sensors, been busy with it for two weeks now.

The 2017 dash is semi monochrome 40611382c but the latest MY 2020 40611385c is full on colour with the same pin layout.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,385 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
There was some talk about the dash upgrade in 2017 but those members enthusiasm seems to have fizzled away.
Going with the monster full colour dash the pin locations are different to the SS.
I'm not one for hacking a bikes wire harness so I've decided to build an intercept harness (50mm) and the pins will be lined up accordingly.

The 34 way 4 row Tyco Amp connectors needed are 4-1437290-1 and 2-644232-3. Terminals are 3-1447221-4. The 34 way connector already has the superseal built into the connector.

Perhaps this info can save someone a fair bit of effort trying to determine what the dash connectors are should they decide to modernise their SS instruments panel.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,385 Posts
Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
There was some talk about the dash upgrade in 2017 but those members enthusiasm seems to have fizzled away.
Going with the monster full colour dash the pin locations are different to the SS.
I'm not one for hacking a bikes wire harness so I've decided to build an intercept harness (50mm) and the pins will be lined up accordingly.

The 34 way 4 row Tyco Amp connectors needed are 4-1437290-1 and 2-644232-3. Terminals are 3-1447221-4. The 34 way connector already has the superseal built into the connector.

Perhaps this info can save someone a fair bit of effort trying to determine what the dash connectors are should they decide to modernise their SS instruments panel.
Here are a few pics from my SS.
 

Attachments

1 - 20 of 28 Posts
Top