Ducati Supersport 939 Forum banner

1 - 20 of 145 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
54 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Ok,
I’m intentionally kicking the hornet’s nest here. After some interesting and heated debate on another thread, it seems that there are some members on here that know better than Keith. I’m looking to get a debate started here and get us all thinking. I’ll be on my best behavior. 😇

My $.02 is this. Code breaks down how to control a motorcycle at speed in a way that is digestible for the average population. Concepts like SR’s and target fixation are very simple and make it easy to deconstruct a riding incident. The track day instructors I have worked with all look to Code and most have attended his super-bike school.

The thing to remember is that one cannot succinctly summarize the physics of every possible situation in a series of books or classes. So yes, there are some situations where Code’s guidelines are best but not 100% law.

As an example, I’ve ridden with an instructor that has a prosthetic leg below the knee. He commented that it simply isn’t possible to weight that peg. This doesn’t prevent him from riding very fast or teaching Code’s theory despite not being able to use it when he turns left.

You can pound in a nail using a wrench or a hammer. Both will get the job done. You can also ride around a corner with your feet off the pegs. You may get a similar result as with “proper” riding technique. I’m going to choose the best available tool for the job.

Code teaches a theory that casts a broad net and probably applies to everyone here even more so if you are new to bikes (not likely if you have a super sport 939) or have never had formal instruction. If you know better, please send me a link to your super bike school and I’ll gladly attend.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
322 Posts
Read, watch, attend as many as you can. Take what you like and leave what you don't. I've adopted things from Ienatsch, Parks, Pridmore, and Code. Probably in that order. I was lucky enough to be friends with a few Class 1 Police riders when I lived in the UK. Probably learned more from them than anyone. I don't remember them talking much about bike handling techniques. More about reading the road and always being at the right speed, in the right gear, with the proper amount of brakes. I never saw any of them at extreme lean angles. But they could leave the rest of us standing any time they wanted.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,229 Posts
Ok I have no problem with this thread. This is the right place for this discussion to proceed rather than hijacking someone else's. I do have some issues with the interpretation of some of Codes teachings but I will still be doing his courses. I Know I will enjoy, Learn and improve. (if only because I have a racetrack to play and practice on) I would have done them by now if I had the time when the course was on locally. I am happy with the way I ride and don't think I would change much anyway. I cant honestly find any technical Fault With all the comments that John has written and I mostly agree. I think the Target fixation thing needs to be looked at in both ways. Yes Vision is key !!! it is essential and good practice to look through where you are going But Target fixation suggests that you have looked at something focused on it and then head straight for it. It is that you have messed up something and then your brain panics so you default to the save my ass mode which is straighten brake and hope. I am sure we all agree with this and Keith Code has Fcukall to do with it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
96 Posts
I was going to go to California Superbike school while I lived in CA, but decided to have my buddy buy a dirtbike for me in WA and we went riding for a week. All the top riders seem to ride dirt in the off season, so I figured it would be good since it was my first time really riding off road. Plus, pretty sure I had a lot more fun for that week than at a couple day track school.


If you haven't done Yamaha Champ school (https://ridelikeachampion.com/) I'd recommend it. I did the one day course when they visited my military base and it was great. Super awesome group. Nick's book also has a lot of good and interesting stuff.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
430 Posts
Read, watch, attend as many as you can. Take what you like and leave what you don't. I've adopted things from Ienatsch, Parks, Pridmore, and Code. Probably in that order.
Excellent advice.

But the problem as I see it is the beginner rider. If the various sources are presenting opposite ideas, not just slightly different, totally opposing, how does the beginner rider know which is correct?

The knowledgeable rider can work their way through picking and choosing. Perhaps just reinforcing what they already believe to be correct, picking up the odd 'gem'.

As an example, one of the most basic riding concepts. You have one source saying always roll on the gas in a corner with a strong warning rolling off will overload the front tire with loss of traction and likely crash. In contrast other sources are actively promoting 'throttle steering' (which involves deliberately rolling off the throttle at times) to control your line through a corner. How does the beginner rider make sense of these two completely different and seemingly irreconcilable ideas?

Not to leave punters pondering the above conflicting ideas, to me Moto3 racing provides the answer. Routinely riders on the very limits of traction get checked by other riders in corners in that crowded close racing. They clearly 'chop' the gas when forced to 'sit up' in the corner. What generally happens? Does the front tire load up and they instantly slide out, or if not physically knocked out, after a few shimmies of the bike quickly regathers and continue on? These are guys riding on the very limits of traction, not a typical road rider well short of the traction limits of modern quality sport/touring tires.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
54 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Do you really want to go there?

Perhaps it's better to mention concept, theories, riding exercises, techniques, etc., rather than personalities.
Yes. As noted when I said I was intentionally kicking a hornets’ nest. Enjoy!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
54 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
But Target fixation suggests that you have looked at something focused on it and then head straight for it. It is that you have messed up something and then your brain panics so you default to the save my ass mode which is straighten brake and hope. I am sure we all agree with this and Keith Code has Fcukall to do with it.
You are correct. Code’s teachings don’t cause you focus on what You don’t want to hit. It is how the brain works. You focus on the danger at hand. Code just gave it a name and popularized the concept.

Great comments so far. Not yet convinced he’s not a god.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
430 Posts
Great comments so far. Not yet convinced he’s not a god.
Ok, just for the fun of it, I'll bite .....

"Most riders don't understand this simple fact: The harder they twist the gas. the less compliant the rear suspension is and and the more the rear end tries to rise. Most riders believe that the back of the bike goes down when they accelerate. It doesn't. (To test this, put the front wheel of your bike up against a wall and begin to engage the clutch with the transmission in gear. The rear end will come up.)" Chapter 3, A Twist of the Wrist II by Keith Code.

Is the above the wisdom of 'God', OR someone who doesn't really understand the fundamental dynamics affecting the handling and design of a motorcycle, and just trying to sound intelligent hoping the reader knows no better.

So, lets examine the statement. Will the bike rise in the rear if you stick its nose up against a wall and engage the clutch. Yes, it will. Perhaps at this point Keith really is God.

Only one small not insignificant problem. Put the nose of ANY unloaded rear wheel drive vehicle (car or bike) against a wall and engage the clutch and the rear will rise as the rear wheel/s try to drive under the stationary vehicle. Opppsss, that crown doesn't look quite as secure as it was a few seconds ago.....

What happens to the rear of the same car, which went up with its nose against the wall, when you drop the clutch at a set of traffic lights? The rear goes down!!!! That's why they put 'wheelie bars' on the back of funny cars at the drag strip, they don't put them on the front. OHH, OOO!! That crown is now in serious danger of falling off !!!

Why does the car go up when it has its nose against a wall, and the opposite direction, down on the road. Because weight transfer from the front to the rear upon acceleration, the very force that makes the car or bike try to go down in the rear is completely missing when its stationary against a wall. High school level physics. OPPSSS, what was that sound? Sounded to me like a crown just bouncing on the floor :laugh:

The reality is all the riders who Keith has spoken to who believe "the back of the bike goes down when they accelerate" actually know more than him. In practice it may go up, remain level, or go down (squat is the correct technical term). What it will do will depend on the squat/anti squat characteristics of the particular bike, and just where the suspension is in its travel.

Top end race teams will tune the variables of swing arm and chain pull angle to get the desired squat/anti-squat. It is my understanding they aim for just a tad of squat to maximize traction out of corners. The last thing they want is the rear rising significantly at that point, reducing traction, and the rear wheel spinning up and the rider going nowhere.

So back to the original question. Was what will happen to the rear of a motorcycle upon acceleration in A Twist of the Wrist written by God, or a highly flawed explanation written by someone who doesn't understand even some basic concepts and just trying to sound 'smart'? You be the judge.

P.S. If you want to get a correct technical explanation on the squat/anti squat characteristics of a motorcycle from someone who actually knows something about the subject, read the bible (no pun intended) on that type of subject i.e. Motorcycle Handling and Chassis Design by Tony Foale.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
54 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
John,
I think your “test” of effectively chocking the front wheel with a wall is invalid. All that tells you is what happens when the front wheel is held stationary. Accelerate hard from a stop and what happens to a car, motorcycle or any other wheeled vehicle? Weight transfers backward and loads the suspension. Squat. You can’t tell me that the suspension loads are the same on the rear wheel in a power wheelie exiting a corner as they are when trail braking deep into a corner.

Your argument gets much more interesting when you begin to acknowledge that suspension set up and swing arm pivot relationship to the sprocket are big factors on what the rear end does. I have tremendous experience with bicycle suspension and linkage designs as well as pivot locations drastically alter how the suspension acts under drive loads. Some squat and some stand up.

However, the average mortal on an average bike will experience what Code describes. Brake hard into a corner and the front end dives, steepening the steering angle making the bike easier to turn. At the apex, throttle is opened and lean angle is reduced to get the bike on the fat part of the tire to accelerate.

Independent of what the bike’s suspension is doing, laws of physics dictate that acceleration forces attempt to pull the rider back on the bike and in almost all cases loads up the rear tire and suspension. If this weren’t true you’d see a lot fewer rear wheel drive drag cars.

Your move John. ��
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
430 Posts
John,
I think your “test” of effectively chocking the front wheel with a wall is invalid. All that tells you is what happens when the front wheel is held stationary. Accelerate hard from a stop and what happens to a car, motorcycle or any other wheeled vehicle? Weight transfers backward and loads the suspension. Squat. You can’t tell me that the suspension loads are the same on the rear wheel in a power wheelie exiting a corner as they are when trail braking deep into a corner.

Your argument gets much more interesting when you begin to acknowledge that suspension set up and swing arm pivot relationship to the sprocket are big factors on what the rear end does. I have tremendous experience with bicycle suspension and linkage designs as well as pivot locations drastically alter how the suspension acts under drive loads. Some squat and some stand up.

However, the average mortal on an average bike will experience what Code describes. Brake hard into a corner and the front end dives, steepening the steering angle making the bike easier to turn. At the apex, throttle is opened and lean angle is reduced to get the bike on the fat part of the tire to accelerate.

Independent of what the bike’s suspension is doing, laws of physics dictate that acceleration forces attempt to pull the rider back on the bike and in almost all cases loads up the rear tire and suspension. If this weren’t true you’d see a lot fewer rear wheel drive drag cars.

Your move John. ��
There seems to be some comprehension problem here.

The 'test' of sticking the front wheel against a wall as 'proof' of how a motorcycle will react under acceleration is not my test. It is Keith Codes, cut and past directly from a pdf version of a A Twist of The Wrist.

And for the first time it seems we fully agree. Sticking a front wheel again a wall to demonstrate a point is totally flawed, and would only be suggested by someone with little understanding of the subject. Certainly not something that a true 'god' would suggest.

And I feel I must point out, your false prophet would be most upset by your statement "throttle is opened and lean angle is reduced to get the bike on the fat part of the tire to accelerate."
Someone reading that would think opening the throttle contributes to getting the bike onto the fat part of the tire i.e. stand up. Your false prophet would be most upset with this possible meaning. He preaches an additional counter-steer through the bars is the ONLY thing that makes a bike stand up again out of a corner. If your going to be a 'true believer' you have to get the message right.

Hey! With god centered in California and teaching the USA's future motorcycle racers for the best part of the last 30? years, how are all these racers, imparted with the wisdom of god, performing on the world stage? You know the elite level WSB, Moto3/2/GP?

Once cigarette sponsorship of motorcycle racing stopped, it seems to me the true god packed his bags and moved to Europe, and has been living in Spain for quite a few years now. :laugh:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
54 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
There seems to be some comprehension problem here.

The 'test' of sticking the front wheel against a wall as 'proof' of how a motorcycle will react under acceleration is not my test. It is Keith Codes, cut and past directly from a pdf version of a A Twist of The Wrist.

And for the first time it seems we fully agree. Sticking a front wheel again a wall to demonstrate a point is totally flawed, and would only be suggested by someone with little understanding of the subject. Certainly not something that a true 'god' would suggest.

And I feel I must point out, your false prophet would be most upset by your statement "throttle is opened and lean angle is reduced to get the bike on the fat part of the tire to accelerate."
Someone reading that would think opening the throttle contributes to getting the bike onto the fat part of the tire i.e. stand up. Your false prophet would be most upset with this possible meaning. He preaches an additional counter-steer through the bars is the ONLY thing that makes a bike stand up again out of a corner. If your going to be a 'true believer' you have to get the message right.

Hey! With god centered in California and teaching the USA's future motorcycle racers for the best part of the last 30? years, how are all these racers, imparted with the wisdom of god, performing on the world stage? You know the elite level WSB, Moto3/2/GP?

Seems to me the true god has been living in Spain for quite a few years now. :laugh:
I feel a little like I walked into a prison and punched the biggest MF there. I ain’t backing down.

We both know that Moto-A doesn’t have the caliber of racing for their riders to compete on the world stage. Ask people who know and it’s down to politics and regulations. Talk to anyone who races Moto-A about the spec fuel and how it tends to detonate. Our boys don’t have a chance regardless of talent in the modern era. Side note: are we completely ignoring Ben Spies?

Goddamnit, John. You were kind of right earlier. I need to brush up on my scripture before we go toe to toe again. Code does say that silliness about the wall. He does Acknowledge that the suspension on many bikes rises under acceleration but it’s reduced by smooth throttle application.

Like a true evangelist, my faith is not shaken. I still believe that 95% of riders in 95% of situations will benefit from Code.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
430 Posts
I feel a little like I walked into a prison and punched the biggest MF there. I ain’t backing down.

We both know that Moto-A doesn’t have the caliber of racing for their riders to compete on the world stage. Ask people who know and it’s down to politics and regulations. Talk to anyone who races Moto-A about the spec fuel and how it tends to detonate. Our boys don’t have a chance regardless of talent in the modern era. Side note: are we completely ignoring Ben Spies?

Goddamnit, John. You were kind of right earlier. I need to brush up on my scripture before we go toe to toe again. Code does say that silliness about the wall. He does Acknowledge that the suspension on many bikes rises under acceleration but it’s reduced by smooth throttle application.

Like a true evangelist, my faith is not shaken. I still believe that 95% of riders in 95% of situations will benefit from Code.
Are you saying gods disciples haven't got the commitment, confidence, money or skills, to go buy a plane ticket and move to where the action truly is?

Regarding Ben Spies, Jack Miller has also won a single MotoGP race (but still may win more) but I wouldn't be using Australia's sole rider at the elite level as an example of the current depth of Australian motorcycle racing.

"Code does say that silliness about the wall. He does Acknowledge that the suspension on many bikes rises under acceleration" Lets be clear, he DOESN'T say 'many bikes'! He clearly implies ALL bikes. Not only is he WRONG (that is the correct word), his silly flawed test to try and explain this wrongness just reinforces his lack of understanding of the subject. If that isn't bad enough, as he so often does, he says the majority who believe differently are wrong, and only he knows the 'true light'. As so often, he is the one who is wrong.

I could fill this thread for the next 10 years with examples of 'silliness' from A Twist of the Wrist, and subsequent writing of your false prophet. But I'll leave you with the one that really gets up my craw.

"I have even seen articles in usually credible national magazines extolling the virtues of body mass type steering. Body Steering as it is called. I have surveyed thousands of riders on this point. Most riders still believe that some of the steering is being done with their body mass or weight shift or pressure on the motorcycle's tank or pegs.

Their estimates on how effective these are in getting the bike to turn range anywhere from 10% to 90%,"
Keith Code, February 2008. https://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/countercode.html

You really think 95% of riders in 95% of situations will benefit from being told by your false prophet they are "seriously misguided" in believing 'body English' in its various forms is a totally ineffective riding technique? Again, the thousands of riders who believe some directional control is achieved by means other than the bars are correct. The false prophet, as is so often the case, is totally wrong again on this VERY important matter.

For years I've watched threads on motorcycle forums where a beginner or intermediate level rider asks for advice related to directional control get trashed and virtually shut down by the disciples of the false prophet. Nearly an untouchable subject, FFS on motorcycle forums. All of the heat comes solely from the false prophet's flawed teachings.

Lets be clear, EVERY rider will benefit SIGNIFICANTLY by completely disregarding the nonsense the false prophet peddles on that subject, and take notice of people such as Nick Ienatsch who correctly promote and teach 'body steering' as an important element of controlling a motorcycle.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,229 Posts
I feel a little like I walked into a prison and punched the biggest MF there. I ain’t backing down.

We both know that Moto-A doesn’t have the caliber of racing for their riders to compete on the world stage. Ask people who know and it’s down to politics and regulations. Talk to anyone who races Moto-A about the spec fuel and how it tends to detonate. Our boys don’t have a chance regardless of talent in the modern era. Side note: are we completely ignoring Ben Spies?

Goddamnit, John. You were kind of right earlier. I need to brush up on my scripture before we go toe to toe again. Code does say that silliness about the wall. He does Acknowledge that the suspension on many bikes rises under acceleration but it’s reduced by smooth throttle application.

Like a true evangelist, my faith is not shaken. I still believe that 95% of riders in 95% of situations will benefit from Code.
Man That was a knock out BLOW
John,
I think your “test” of effectively chocking the front wheel with a wall is invalid. All that tells you is what happens when the front wheel is held stationary
you Actualy discredited your False God. It was like watching someone hit themselves in the face. Oh wait wait wait, I wasn't ready :laugh::laugh: I get another go as I wasn't READY, PREPAIRED etc best out of 3 ? [quoteGoddamnit, John. You were kind of right earlier. I need to brush up on my scripture before we go toe to toe again. Code does say that silliness about the wall][/quote] You win John the Challenge was to Prove me wrong
not to Convince me otherwise. Good game though @Rentedshoes. from an entertainment point of view :laugh::laugh::laugh: Such a newbie mistake. I've been reading his posts for over 2 years and haven't bee able to technically discredit him Yet...…..YET.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
430 Posts
This thread reminds of the Seinfeld Show.

Not really. I know two people personally who wrote off their bikes (fortunately they were ok) as a result of following the false prophet's methods. One is my brother-in-law, the other a lady I regularly ride with.

Both nearly identical incidents, come into a corner a bit hot, followed the advice of 'experts' never touch the brakes in a corner, stay on the gas and lean. Both ended up in the guard rail.

I wonder how many thousands of riders have suffered a similar fate (perhaps not so lucky to walk away).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
882 Posts
Both nearly identical incidents, come into a corner a bit hot, followed the advice of 'experts' never touch the brakes in a corner, stay on the gas and lean. Both ended up in the guard rail.
At the risk angering the beehive and cementing my place (apparently) as one of the 5 guys who does nothing but stirs the pot, I don’t think that advice is as awful as it seems for the vast majority of riders who may lack skill to properly determine their situation and how to deal with it. That teaching is also part of the MSF curriculum, or at least was, btw, so it’s not just Keith.

1. If I had to choose a wreck, I’d rather low side than high side (easy to do if you don’t know how to properly brake). Going for it, you’ll most likely lowside if you don’t make it. Is that what your people did?
2. A lot of the time if you lean into the corner farther than you think you can, you’ll find actually can make it. Motorcycles can lean a LONG way before running out of tire, you may think you’re too hot but odds are your bije doesn’t so in essence the statement of hang tight and try it isn’t all that crazy.
3. Braking while leaning is a hard task to do to maintain enough grip you don’t overwhelm what you have available, especially in a panic situation. I agree it’s a skill you SHOULD know how to do but I bet 90% plus riders on the road don’t so either way, you’re going down, might as well try the corner and see if you can actually do it.
4. Most people freak, stand the bike up and brake hard when they think they are going too hot into a corner. It’s human nature and yep, I know I’ll piss you off, John, but they see the guardrail and then head right towards it. You’re right, there are many other factors involved, and both riders you mentioned were subject to them, but the simple fact is we humans go where we look so if you look at the guardrail and not the escape path, you are probably going that way. If you look through the corner, you’ll body will follow.

Is it perfect advice for every single situation? Nope, but unless you have Code on one shoulder (the devil) and Reg Pridmore on the other (the angel?) telling you what to do YOU need to choose based on your skill.

I wonder how many thousands of riders have suffered a similar fate (perhaps not so lucky to walk away).
That’s pretty melodramatic, no? You think god Code has brainwashed that many people? Wonder when the Kool-Aid drinking will begin.........his classes must be nothing but carnage and debris.......

Again, if you had to choose a wreck, normally a low side is the lesser of the wrecks. Code isn’t a god, nor is anyone else you look up to, all make mistakes or correction. Nick even had to write a Pace II because several of the concepts of the original one changed, were revamped or needed to be re-explained.

I don’t think Code’s teachings are all that great either and if I had a choice I’d do the Yamaha Champions School over his class but I don’t discount him because he’s not a champion racer or not in the motorcycle hall of fame and there are things you don’t agree with. He’s worked with thousands of riders over 30 years, if all he did was cause people to wreck he’d have been out of business years ago.

There’s a local riding school where I live run by Jessica Zalusky called ZARS that teaches a ton of people in the area and while I don’t always agree with certain coaches teachings, I don’t discount her or her school because she didn’t win a championship. How many championship NBA coaches were members of championship NBA teams? How about the NFL? Because you can follow directions doesn’t mean you can give directions.
 
1 - 20 of 145 Posts
Top